Skopje, 13 December 2023 (MIA) - The Growth Plan for the Western Balkans would be one of the issues that would be tackled both in the EU–Western Balkans Summit today, and in the EU Council, that begins tomorrow. This additional funding is important for gradual integration, but also subject to conditions – conditions which are reforms. It’s not money for free, Ambassador of the Kingdom of Spain to the Republic of North Macedonia, José Luis Lozano García, said in an interview with MIA.  

 

In the interview, García also comments on the enlargement momentum, the merit-based approach in terms of the European integration processes, the constitutional amendments, dealing with corruption, Euroscepticism and upcoming elections for the European Parliament, as well as the bilateral relations between Spain and North Macedonia.

 

Below is the full interview with Spanish Ambassador José Luis Lozano García, along with video material. 

 

 

The 5th Spanish EU Presidency was marked with the early parliamentary elections held in the country in July, the forming of a new Government led by Prime Minister Sanchez, who was re-elected. How satisfied are you with the realization of the agenda of Spain’s Presidency of the EU Council?

 

We are about to conclude our EU presidency, the rotating presidency and I wouldn’t go into making a comment where we are or not satisfied or myself, I mean I can just speak about some figures which may give the idea of how much we have accomplished. We have already had 24 informal ministerial meetings, 24 formal ministerial meetings, General Affairs Councils, Foreign Affairs Councils, Energy Councils, all 24. We have had so far six summits; we have had an informal European Council; we have had formal and regular one European Council and we are expecting to have additional things. In a few days we are having EU-Western Balkans Summit and we are having next day the European Council. So, that’s only for figures I can say we have already taken great steps forward in several issues, fields. It would be up to other people to consider to what it stands that we have achieved our goals. But there is a feeling and that was the purpose from the very first day, elections or not, just to carry forward this presidency. Spain, and you already mentioned, on this the fifth occasion we are on the chair, we are presiding over European Union Council and for us is a sort of, I would not say everyday exercise, but it’s part of being Europeans, so we try to prepare, we have been in preparation for months and in the end we come to it. We are European, pro-European country, we have pro-European citizens and we are committed to it, we work and we continue to work.

 

Although the EU enlargement process was not among the top priorities of the Spanish presidency, Madrid's support for the EU perspective of North Macedonia and the Western Balkan region is firm and consistent. Also, Foreign Ministers Osmani and Albarez signed a Memorandum of Understanding in Skopje in April, this year for the development of cooperation in the EU accession process. What can we expect in this segment of bilateral cooperation?

 

 

I want to make a remark concerning your first statement in your question, I know that it is not part of our four priorities, but because as I said when I was addressing two commissions in the Parliament, for us Western Balkans, the whole region is the most important one. Once again I would go to facts and figures. First of all, we had a seminar just a few days before the beginning of our presidency in June, seminar having all actors from the region participating. Second thing, for example, we have among these 24 informal meetings, we have one at the end of September which actually addressed the issues related to the enlargement, I mean we have repercussions of enlargement in EU policies, we made an analysis of what were the needs, what were the necessary steps that need to be taken in order to accommodate for enlargement, I mean, I speak about the internal reforms of the EU and also we have touched upon issues that have been in the focus for the last few months, which is gradual integration that was part of it and then we began preparations of the Granada declaration and we are all aware that in the declaration one of the main topics, actually is the last but one paragraph in that declaration where there is very clear message concerning enlargement.

 

So if someone would say enlargement is not part of, or Western Balkans is not part of, I would contradict with this. I would like to make it clear that we have been working and we continue to work these days precisely to push forward on the issue of enlargement. Then we came to the bilateral. This memorandum of understanding which is of political nature, and by this it does not mean that it is of lesser importance, but the only thing is that it’s not a legally constraining document but a memorandum of understanding well established already it has quite a wide range of possibilities. I mean it goes from joint promotion of stability and prosperity, but there is also very concrete things for example and we are about to begin implementation once we have concluded our presidency with some specific ideas. But for example, national coordination is very important in the process whenever you are in the process of becoming a full member of the European Union.

 

That’s one of the issues, where we are ready to share our experience, I mean we have a long experience, we have quite a long process of negotiations, it was also complicated to get into all intricacies what it means to be EU full member, for example that’s one thing, taking full advantage of EU financial instruments on that we also can share our experiences and we are not to teach lessons, but we can share our experience how important it is that you manage to absorb the maximum quantity, how to learn to use it. Also to work on the aquis, how to make up harmonisation with the legal aquis which is almost everything you can imagine. And not only that we have been working so far with North Macedonia concerning twinning and TAIEX, which are two instruments within a whole range of instruments that can be used in order to get country ready to work with all the advantages of being a EU member. So, there are wide range of possibilities, we are going to develop them, we are going to implement them, it’s just a question of time. We have been part of as many as I think it was 10 or around 10 twinnings with North Macedonia and we are ready to go forward, we have experience and we know how to share it, not teaching lessons but being helpful, that’s the whole point.     

 

North Macedonia received the new EC Report on the country's progress, which noted serious remarks regarding the situation in the judiciary and the fight against corruption. What do you think is the key approach to move reforms in this critical area?

 

This is the most important Chapter when becoming a full member of the European Union. For all of us, all members that are actually full members of the EU and also for candidates. Indeed in the EC Progress Report there is a call for attention to this - the judiciary, what is the current situation, reforms needed, what are the flaws. There is also a report that is to come from the EU peer review mission on the Judicial Council, which paid a visit to the country in July and then later on in September. There would be also recommendations coming from there, there are recommendations coming from the Progress Report. And speaking about the importance we pay in our presidency to the Western Balkans, we actually heard here the Ministerial Forum on 26-27 October, the Ministerial Forum on Justice and Home Affairs, and attention was also paid there to the issue of justice, not only in North Macedonia but the whole region. There is also a report that has been prepared by the OSCE for the whole region that was presented on this occasion and there was a lot of attention. And, when you say what would be the approach, I mean this is highly political and highly technical. You have recommendations, you have to follow recommendations. That would be the key approach. To go through it, it takes time, it takes effort but that would be my approach to it.  

 

 

The country completed the screening process, but political consensus is not yet in sight on the constitutional amendments, which are a condition for continuing the European path. At the upcoming EU Summit scheduled for December 14, decisions are expected on the enlargement process. What will it mean for North Macedonia if the country does not seize the opportunity created by the new geopolitical momentum after the war in Ukraine and the security challenges?

 

The question 'what if not' has become quite common for historians in the last few years, as a new way to approach history. It is difficult to say but let's go to the facts and figures. Back in July 2022, the door opened and the first intergovernmental conference took place, This was very important because it signalled the opening of the negotiations. Another step is coming now, and on this I want to be very clear. The decision to amend the constitution is a sovereign decision to be taken by North Macedonia. No one can decide on your behalf and it is up to you. At the moment there is no majority in Parliament but clearly there is a need to adopt the amendments. If this doesn't happen, there is still momentum but there is still the condition and we should not just forget about this. What will happen in the future, how many months or years will this window of opportunity be there, who knows? The condition has not been met. The European Council will decide on several issues, this is currently negotiated, we should be prudent and cautious on this issue. The message is clear, there is a condition that must be met.

 

The EU-Western Balkans summit will be held the day before the EU Summit, in conditions where the Union is much more focused on Ukraine's membership bid. Are there grounds for concern that political assessments will dominate over the merit principles in the evaluation of European integration processes?

 

About a year ago, we began to speak about the momentum for enlargement. In a way, this is quite a paradox, because we are now considering that Ukraine may have the focus, but at the same time the illegal attack by Russia against Ukraine actually was the origin of this momentum. We have to be aware that there is a momentum and there is this opportunity that should be seized. I'd like to recall the precise text, the precise wording of the Granada declaration, once again there is a very specific reference to merit-based approach. So, on that, I mean there may be a political setting, a political framework, but in the end when we come to this process, it is a process that is led by a merit-based approach. And on that, even if we have a specific momentum, we’ll have to take this into account, for North Macedonia and for all the other countries.

 

What is your take on the Growth Plan for the Western Balkans and how realistic is the 2030 enlargement target date, which Brussel announced as a time frame for the EU to be prepared for new member states?

 

 

The Growth Plan, actually, we were talking about, how, to what extent, the EU Presidency’s term has been productive on this issue. I would recall, as I said, in the formal General Affairs Council we had in Murcia there was a mention of this gradual integration, which is part of the idea. This Growth Plan represents a response to this request of making easier the convergence of differences in economic systems, in the sense that it’s not only getting prepared on the Acquis or other issues. I think, actually, in the visit of Von der Leyen on October 30, she referred to North Macedonia’s level of the rate of convergence as something around 40 or 42, so it’s quite an important thing. The Growth Plan would be one of the issues that would be tackled both in the EU – Western Balkans Summit and in the EU Council, just the day after. So, it would be one of the main issues and it’s indeed a response to that, I mean, it’s some additional funding [which is] important to come to this gradual integration. More funding, but also, let’s recall, subject to conditions – conditions which are reforms. This has been always the case – there’s reforms and conditions, it’s part of the game, of the European Union, not only of becoming a full member, but it’s also part of being a member. Whenever there is funding for something, we have just witnessed with Next Generation or with other funding that has been provided to European member states, it’s been always on the basis of you have to this, you have to do that. It’s not money for free. 

 

An election year is ahead, regular elections are expected in North Macedonia in May, as well as elections for the European Parliament in June. How much will the outcome of the elections and the rise of the Euroscepticism in some EU-member states affect the reform processes in the country and the EU enlargement policy?

 

Two set of elections, both important. I will begin with the elections in North Macedonia. I will begin by saying that it’s not up to me to comment on it, whatever is the result – that’s it. That’s on the one hand, as for the elections in the European Parliament, you speak about Euroscepticism, and this is an issue, I wouldn’t be able to quote figures or statistics or rates but it comes and goes. Now, someone would say we are in a position that may be more Eurosceptic. The results, whatever they may be, we will have to go with them, it’s the vote of the citizens. As a European – well I don’t know if I will have the opportunity to vote or not on this occasion – but it’s a response to what is the public opinion and then we will have to accommodate to it. But, anyhow, let me recall something, there is a need for some time to set up the new Commission, at the same time the European Union is a political animal, that works in their own terms. Actually, there have been new ideas, changes, and amendments but there is this idea of a wide Europe that is going to progress, it will respond to whatever is the result of the vote of the citizens. But, at the same time, I would say, already in the Grenada Declaration there were some hints towards enlargement. I would say it was a clear statement, whether we are going to say something that is going to be completely different, I don’t know, the citizens could say something completely different, I don’t know either. So I am not going to be a fortune teller, but what I can say is the European Union has been for a long period, has been more than half a century, and at the same time, it has its own philosophy and a way to approach things. There is Euroscepticism, well, it has to be properly reflected in whatever decisions are taken by the European institutions. But, in the end what we say is this is a long-term process, and we will see how it evolves in the coming years. Asking or wondering about how things may evolve, I think is going too far at the moment. 

 

 

What is Madrid's position regarding the Report of the Franco-German expert group on EU reform, which proposes that the EU moves to qualified majority decision-making in preparation for a new enlargement?

 

It was one of the issues that is to be discussed in the coming months and years. Qualified majority – in view of the coming enlargement. Spain quite before we made the Grenada Declaration has been in favor of promoting some changes in the decision-making in the European Union. But this was quite before, we are already a large Union, it’s quite difficult to get everything by consensus, and we have been supporting that already for a while. But, we are speaking something that has been on the table for quite a long time. Now, with the process of enlargement, it’s something that is an acute question that has to be taken on board. What is the position of Madrid? The position of Madrid is at the moment to look for consensus. It’s not just this report, it’s something that dates back years ago, it’s not the first time that within the EU there is discussions to change the decision-making system. Now, it’s related to enlargement, but it’s been already an issue for years. And I can say what has been so far the position of Spain, actually we have been promoting it, we began, at the time, I am not referring to this very precise project or report put forward by these experts, it was a point made that there was a need to be considered. But it is, indeed, it’s something that it will come and a really, really technical issue, highly political but a technical issue – it is quite complex. We have been considering this for years, and without making any reference to this specific report.

 

Last year, Pedro Sánchez was the first Spanish Prime Minister to officially visit the country since the establishment of bilateral relations, and this year Alvarez was the first head of Spanish diplomacy, who paid a visit to Skopje. How do you evaluate the new dynamics in bilateral relations between the two countries, which will mark the 30th anniversary next year, and are also NATO allied countries?  

 

One would say that we are now in the best possible moments in our bilateral relations. Well, actually, we should be much more ambitious. The idea is that we can improve. These two visits of our Prime Minister and Minister Alvarez on a bilateral basis are a step forward in an incremental process, little by little we are sort of getting at a level where we are having these sort of bilateral exchanges at a high level. Actually, on more than one occasion there have been visits of a bilateral format from the Prime Minister of North Macedonia or from the Minister of Foreign Affairs, so it goes both ways. Indeed, that’s one part of it. But in the end, bilateral relations are based on something more than institutional. Institutional is important but it’s not the only thing, and whenever our Prime Minister came and Minister Alvarez the message is always the same. We have to build on that basis and build on improving our economic relationship, improving our cultural relationship, improving our people to people relationship.

 

 

For example, it would be important to come back and have once again direct flights between North Macedonia and Spain, there used to be, we, as Embassy, are working for that, it’s homework for myself. But, I think, it’s sort of the basis for this. The 30th anniversary is indeed a good occasion to take stock of where we have what, but what we have to be very very ambitious and we are working on that. Any Ambassador would be happy to just to say, to commend, that in just a period of over one year there was a visit by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs – actually, it wasn’t only that – we have Minister of Justice and Minister of Interior [visit] too, I mean it was for a multilateral issue but also took the opportunity to have these exchanges. It goes farther than that, there was a visit also long time ago by the Minister of Defense, and you also mentioned, now we are NATO allies, actually we have to improve, to enrich our relationship in security-related matters and that’s another of the issues. Well, for sure, I already mentioned, economic should and it is, one of our priorities.

 

One of the best promoters of cultural cooperation are cultural centers. Spain has the Cervantes Institute. Can we expect the opening of a branch of this Institute in North Macedonia soon, since there are such in several other Balkan countries?

 

Instituto Cervantes or cultural centers is one of the main instruments to improve cultural relations. It’s not the only one. This decision implies not only funding but also an administrative decision, it is complex, it’s long, and I cannot foresee that this is going to take place in the coming months or 2024. It’s quite complicated I mean, and let’s be much more practical, we are already working on some ideas concerning online courses of Spanish. Spanish which is a language that is not only for Spain, I always keep on saying that it’s a language that is shared by, I don’t know the numbers, 600 millions, something like that, That’s an important thing, I keep on saying it, how important it is not because it is a language – Castilian Spanish that is spoken in Spain, but because it is spoken in all Latin America and it’s also growing in the United States. But what I was saying is that, actually, it’s not only Instituto Cervantos, we have already a lector here, at the university, we have had him already for years, we are improving the capacity of the rates of this lector. But also we are working in other areas, for example, I know that audio-visual, film, is quite important, in the old days I’ve been told that there are plenty of citizens which I meet on a daily basis that I say, well, where did you learn that nice Spanish, and they say well I continue to see soap operas that were quite trendy some 10-15 years ago, and we do not longer have them. Even so, I’ve been told for example, La Casa de Papel (Money Heist), is now one of those top soap operas or series that is followed with most interest in North Macedonia and whole region. So, let’s think about other means, not only Instituto Cervantes, we are working on that, and I can say very proudly for example last year we had in the National Library the opportunity to have a reading of some excerpts, some fragments of Quixote in both Spanish and Macedonian. I don’t know what we will be preparing for this year, but we are always thinking in new ideas because it goes beyond that. I know, for sure, Instituto Cervantes in Skopje would be most important, we will continue to work for that. But at the same time, I mean, in the near future let’s work on some other ideas that might be easier and, that could in the end at least can play an important role in the promotion of our culture, our language and our values, by the way shared values.

 

Thank you Ambassador for this interview for MIA and happy holidays. 

 

Likewise, it's been a pleasure. Best wishes to everyone who will be watching the interview, and all the best for North Macedonia and for its citizens.  

 

Violeta Gerov

Photo: Frosina Naskovikj

Video and editing: Asllan Vishko